If the wall sheathing behind the rim looks good, you’re okay. Use protective safety gear, always. Part 2: Frame & WaterproofingPart 3: DeckingPart 4: LandscapingPart 5: Light Pole Planters Hey there! I think this is 100% a project someone can do by themselves. Benefits of a Floating Deck I’m not a licensed professional. It’s a way to heighten the experience of your yard, add a dedicated social spot, and create the perfect atmosphere for dining or relaxing. Tag me on Instagram @uglyducklingDIY or use the hashtag #uglyducklinghouse to show off your projects! You can see a slight color difference sometimes between the two. :). Hey there! We are thinking of trying to raise the ground level around/under the deck to achieve at least a flat grade if not slightly sloped away from the house. Choose the type of material (pressure treated or composite). I can’t recall off the top of my head on the distance we used but I would first turn to a manufacturer on YouTube (I remember looking at them myself before I began planning). Square designs are the most common floating deck shape, and they lend themselves well to a variety of spaces. So, I plan to make raise the framework in that spot with plastic shims. Many decks are attached to the house for structural reasons and because they are easier to access from the house. Failing to install a continuous handrail on stairs. Some decks can't be attached directly to the house using ledger boards because of a house cantilever or a brick veneer. They are sometimes called “grade-level” or “freestanding” decks because they’re built just above the ground level, or grade. See terms and disclosure page for more info! Discover modern exterior design inspiration, Look for contemporary exterior design inspiration, Top 10 Types of Outdoor Deck Storage Boxes, 32 Wooden Gazebos That Provide Rich Design And Comfortable Spaces. Are you referring to my safety sneakers? Wrapping around the outer edge of a hilltop house, this deck provides expansive views of the surrounding valley and hills. In other cases, such as stuccoed houses, many builders prefer to build a freestanding deck to avoid the mess and difficulty of cutting and flashing stucco. The organically curved shape of this deck is perfect for the vibrant landscape it’s set into. After reading, I wanted to return to read again but could not find the source. It can all seem pretty overwhelming until you get started, and I am VERY good at procrastinating when I have a lot of logical reasons to postpone at my disposal! It’s only 10 X 20 feet and the ground is almost perfectly level. A detached deck is a low deck that is not attached to the side of the house. I think it was worth the $75. The decks in this yard provide a splash of contemporary style in the landscape, with sharp edges and subtle staining. Unless otherwise stated, all images owned by Sarah Fogle & the Ugly Duckling House. Then, we toe nailed the 2x8x12′ joists in place with an overhang of 2′ on both sides and added end caps to the sides. It's a "floating deck," which means it simply rests on blocks at ground level, and is not anchored deeply in the ground. The main difference is where you plan to use it. Subscribing is one of the best ways to get updates, snag DIY tips, and see progress! This uniquely shaped deck appears as a pair of tiered circles, providing a comfortably sized space for relaxing above the garden. I did a whole backyard makeover on our beach bungalow a few years back. I may actually even be overdoing it, but I hope that regardless, the deck lasts a good long while. The concept looks good so will measure and make plans. After making my own deck measurements and plans for a 10 X 24 floating deck, I went for it and actually had Lowe’s deliver all the deck material to my house. Find more backyard ideas in our definitive guide to backyards! This means it will be less expensive; Less labor intensive. With K’s help, we came up with an even better plan: Although this deck design doesn’t run the full length of the existing patio, I like that it sits perfectly between the patio and fire pit. To help build the foundation but account for leveling, sloping, etc., I did some research and found that the best (and most readily-available) fit seemed to be precast pier blocks (aka deck blocks or Handi-blocks). I’ll have to keep an eye on your progress! Set into a large yard with plenty of space, this floating deck features a raised construction design for a truly elevated experience. In a yard flush with thick greenery, this deck provides a simple but effective open space for dining and relaxing, with plenty of room for a large dining set and Adirondack chairs. I occasionally talk about other things, like life and food and travel, but it's mostly my obsession with DIY and power tools that you'll find here! To be honest, I may even be overdoing it, but better safe than sorry! I supposed that’s a pretty normal habit. But as I started marking things out in the yard, I realized that a patio as large as I sketched out would be WAY too big. I confirmed this with a level on my own patio, and the right corner is the lowest spot. It’s a simple, elegant solution that provides years of service and a variety of style options. Attached To House Or Floating Deck? Can’t wait to see the rest. This sleek and subtle floating deck design was made to be tucked into a lush garden. Also good to see someone getting a workout in while the thing is under construction. This is really similar to what I wanted to do and was enough inspiration to actually get me to start the project. Tonight as I was washing paint out of my 2-year old’s hair (I promise it was finger paint, NOT house paint….. no home improvement DIY projects until she’s at least 4 years old ?) Maria. Looks like a big project. I know of no requirements. Ugly Duckling House is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com. This post (or post series, rather) has been a long time coming. It measures about 14 feet x 16 feet. A floating deck is a deck that isn’t attached to a building and they “float” above the ground. This would maximize the yard for an open, entertaining feel, while still giving everything separate zones. With regards to the water management, our yard slopes back in towards our house (although not much), and it appears the same for underneath our deck. I think our spacing was based on the research we did on local requirements or recommendations (I live in GA). I am building a floating duck house for our ducks to have a safer place to sleep and a safer place to lay and sit on their eggs. Hey there! All tutorials and demonstrations are not intended to be professional advice (nor substitute as such), and I make no guarantees as to the procedures and information here. I’m pretty sure our’s is free standing (as I haven’t found any ledger board attachment to the house as of yet). Floating decks are wood decks that rest on the ground and are not attached to any structure, including your house. Holy moly, you guys. Set right above a small manmade pond, this deck truly takes “floating” literally. Often, the posts supporting them are not visible… We built a floating deck! Phew, it’s a lot of work but it’s so worth it. Both begin near the house and run like a bridge over a small yard pond. I planned it this way for good reason: water runoff. Welcome to our gallery featuring floating deck designs. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Step 1 Measure and Locate Footings. Sep 17, 2017 - Explore Aimee's board "Floating deck plans" on Pinterest. Things like using GC lumber, sealing the end grain of the boards when putting together the frame, taping the top of the joists with flashing tape, etc. This floating deck provides that comfort in spades, with enough room for chaise lounges and a full dining set. This beautiful deck was our featured image at the top because it is not only expansive and well-made, but stylish as well. All of a sudden, late last year, things really started to click; it was time to begin the two big projects I’ve always wanted to do. The neighbor to my left is higher in elevation than all the others, so rainwater flows in a single direction in and out of my yard. Sleek style defines this rich wood floating deck. :). I’ll cover a few more facts about GC lumber and even PT lumber in general as this series goes on, but there are so many details to cover! I also wanted to eventually build a floating deck off of the existing concrete slab next to the house. This handsome design was created specifically for this environment, wrapping around a square rock garden with a large tree at the center. Here’s an easy way to get your own floating deck at home without a lot of work. Thanks Sarah! In my opinion, it’s best to err on the side of caution and build things for a heavier weight than you’ll probably ever need. Reading and using any and all information is at your own risk. Bordering the home itself, it’s an extension of the modern minimalist style. If it’s exposed to more moisture, use ground contact. The bright wood stain helps it stand out in the midst of a carefully designed landscape. So far, I’ve learned that water is my biggest concern. The plan has been to continue that same slope on the new deck. The right corner of the new deck plan is at an angle, which allows for the mower to fit in between. Above-ground pool decks are often built freestanding in this fashion. Attached deck Advantages: Less lumber and concrete are needed. In either case, there’s a notch on top that fits a 2x- joist or 4×4 post. This won’t change your price, but may share some commission. I did not use nails. Regardless, I’m doing my best to build things smart and structurally sound, permit or no (the shed as well). Thanks so much for coming back and taking the time to comment! Personalized designs are a great advantage of floating decks. One question, what tool did you use to generate the 3d model of the deck frame? We stopped our joists 16″ short of the end of the beams to create the first step down. This is so true and I also feel this in my soul! Nice! I’m building a floating deck in my back yard! By no means is it a comprehensive guide for every scenario. I planted a hedge line in the lower area as well to anticipate stemming future erosion problems, too. Thanks so much for the offer, but Parts 2, 3, and 4 are finished, so the deck is done! It’s bordered by the house and a small stone wall for added privacy. You can also probably get a lot of the initial info on their website, which is what I first did (requirements could be things like moisture barriers, types of screws, length, what the materials are made out of, what thickness they have to be, etc.). I’ll also be covering a few other tips (it just got too long to do in one post). thing. Best to check with your local code office for that info. This is a great video series – we used the videos as a guide to build our own floating deck in the backyard. SHOP DECK BLOCKS. But that doesn’t mean you cannot have a floating deck beside your house. Very often a free-standing deck is preferable to attached deck because of the elimination of the ledger connection, flashing, water and mold. I hope it makes the project look a lot easier! Re-posting content is not allowed, no exceptions. It definitely took some planning, but I’m so excited to see it DONE! I like tearing my house apart and putting it back together again. I got them here. We are more likely to first change the things we interact with everyday, like the kitchen, before we start fixing the part that can be more easily ignored, like the overgrown bushes in the back yard. I’ll cover this in a future post, but I’m putting a thin layer of gravel under mine as well. The biggest benefit with these is that it would involve less digging. While it may be attached to the home, it extends well into the yard and is bordered by a water feature and outdoor fireplace. However, a user friendly option is called Google SketchUp, so you might want to look into that as a way to do some 3D modeling! A ground-level deck, sometimes referred to as a floating deck or platform deck, is so-called because, unlike conventional decks, a ground-level deck is not attached to a home or building. 3. Tucked into a rich garden next to a small manmade stream, it’s the perfect place to sit and enjoy the view. White paint on the sides and natural staining on top result in a stunning look. I have gravel in place already which is the exact dimensions of the future deck. Power tools are dangerous and can kill you. The only thing might be that you were too high without any bracing for stability. But for those that don’t, for the longest time with this house, I’ve been focusing a lot on the interior. This is a really. That helps a lot, and you’ve confirmed much of what I have seen in my research. This way, the deck would be nice and square and the back edge would be perfectly straight. Each year, I dedicated a little time toward making progress. Read my complete disclosure here. It’s kind of a lot to fit into a single space and around the only remaining tree in the yard. If it’s smarter than the average bear… ground contact. The floating … Haha my yoga form could use some work, but thank you! for K; I won’t fight it, since I win by not having to mow. So, this post is going to cover a lot of topics regarding research, budgeting, and design. To understand how to build a floating deck, here are a few basics. Comment Policy: I love comments, especially if they make me laugh. Legal disclaimer stuff: this is a personal recap and what I learn as I work on projects in my home. P.S. The sheer variety is its greatest strength. I built the frame myself and had help for part of the leveling. But as for max weight load, I’m not sure and I’d look to the manufacturer. This post may contain affiliate links. Several times, I have discovered cool discussions of would working projects that interest me. A floating deck, also called a free standing deck, is simply a deck that’s not attached to any structure, including (of course) your house. ), and renovation realities from a short gal in the power tool aisle. See more ideas about floating deck, building a deck, decks backyard. Even though I removed most of the trees, I kept the central one because it makes for a natural anchor for all the new lighting that will tie everything together (patio lights make everything better!). I was worried we wouldn’t be able to make it because the ground wasn’t flat. But even if it’s attached to the house, I wouldn’t be surprised if the main issue is whether or not it’s self-supporting (some decks attach to the house but have additional support underneath the house right where the deck and house meet, so even though it attaches, the weight isn’t relying on the house in any way). One important piece of info: since most of the new deck is touching the ground, the entire support structure (everything but the deck boards) will be made from “ground contact” lumber. The extensive layout makes for a comforting, lightly protected space to relax or dine outdoors. delivery fee. While a floating deck might be next to a building, it may also be a standalone structure in the middle of your yard. We are planning a large 20’x20′ floating deck and I can’t seem to find any info regarding the max distance apart the cement decking blocks and joists can be? On top of these, there will be a framework of 2×6 lumber and then the deck boards. The main drawbacks were that I couldn’t find many examples of TuffBlocks in use on uneven ground, and the supply would have been a special order. Looking forward to the rest of the posts! You rock. Now that the deck is done, the next step is to build the pergola. Building a floating deck has its advantages, both from design or functional considerations, as you can enjoy taking a meal with your family, surrounded by trees, grass and nice flowers. If you wind up having questions as I go, I’ll try address them in future posts! This seemed like a great option if I could also somehow convince K to help me design and plan it. Where they are too high to sit on the ground, I’m digging them down partially into the dirt. Generally, floating decks are low to the ground and don’t require handrails or even staircases. While most floating decks aren’t attached to the house, this design stands are more of an extension to the existing house-length deck. Get the tutorial at House by the Bay Design. Hopefully, this will lead to building a shed which I really need!!! So, a huge thank-you to Wood Its Real for that help! You may already know of “pressure-treated” or “PT” lumber, which is lumber that has been chemically treated to withstand outdoor conditions better than bare wood. Patios and just about anything in the yard have a slight slope for the same reason. I wanted the new build to create a natural flow from the patio door to the deck, from the deck to the fire pit, and so on. All floating decks are free standing decks. The existing house rim and the lower support walls need to be solid enough to support the multi-ton weight of a deck filled with people. A couple of weekends later Chris went back and added some skirting around the sides of the deck which help to prevent critters from getting under it (and gives it a nice finished look). If it’s within 6 inches of the ground, definitely GC. Join me for do-it-yourself home improvement tips, tutorials (even crafts and food! She looked and could not identify the brand. This floating deck runs right next to a large set of sliding glass doors for easy interior access. That was a huge thing for me, since this has so many moving parts with weather/budget/etc. Let’s see here: ground contact lumber, slope, plastic/flashing, drainage… basically every part of my plan has fighting moisture in common! But to do any of it, we needed an actual, proper plan. Top 10 Types of Outdoor Deck Storage Boxes | 32 Wooden Gazebos That Provide Rich Design And Comfortable Spaces | 25 Patio Dining Sets Perfect for Spring | 28 Remarkable Backyard Waterpark Ideas. However you could build a "free standing deck" next to your house but it … Don’t feed your dog chocolate, don’t stick keys in the electrical socket, and so on. And MAKING THINGS. The multiple layers of this floating deck make for an intriguing design, with two distinct top level areas for sunbathing and dining, respectively. This is the very first post of this series, but you will be able to catch the whole thing, start to finish, right here. I’m not a contractor of course, but I think a ledger board or attaching the deck to the house will probably require a permit. Even though there are standards (IRC and others) that are adopted by many states, the whole thing is rather complex; it took time to figure out the who/what/where/when (yes, that all matters): I checked with my local guidelines prior to starting (if you don’t find one for your city, start researching the county, and so on). I'm Sarah. We hired someone to put in a stone patio last year, but we’d considered doing wood. For under the deck, the most common approach I’ve seen is using some impermeable barrier over the ground, and pouring gravel over top of that. Thank you for your encouraging words, Wendi! « Simple DIY Tricks for Covered Porch Plants, 6 Must-See Gardening Ideas to Transform Your Outdoor Space », Here is a graphic that breaks it down depending on use, What the codes are (there are multiple standards/guidelines that might be used to determine what is adopted), Where they apply (city code, county code, etc. But not all free standing decks are floating. 1. For more on photo licenses and other use permissions, click here (in true UDH style, it’s actually kind of fun and snarky to read). Need to make a floating deck next to the house . Floating decks are much easier to build than standard attached decks and typically don't require a building permit. While most decks will simply be stained and sealed for weather protection, you may prefer to paint yours. Then, I sketched up a quick version of how I thought everything would be done. HUGE help – thanks! I knew I wanted to build a shed for extra storage toward the back of my lot and began planning for that last summer (which is also underway, but that build has its own separate series). Creating with my suggested methods, materials, and tools is under your own risk. I think sloping away from the house is a great idea, but doing any leveling work close to the house might mean needing to get some expert help. Because detached decks usually remain lower than 30 inches, many communities do not require building permits or require railings and balusters . The deck is populated with rich wicker frame chairs and a dining table in the exact same stain. Thanks to an uphill slope at the rear of the house, the deck surface was only 5 feet high next to the house but closer to 3-1/2 feet on the far end. And me, awkwardly doing bad yoga in celebration of a finished step. Good luck! Thanks in advance. Due to flood plain regulations, the deck cannot be attached to the house-- it has to be free-floating. The prefabricated pieces can be snapped together and set up within a day. 2. 3. The post in the middle of this flight of stairs … As you can see from that digital rendering above, part of the new deck will cover a small corner of the existing patio. Literally going to the store after replying so I can get the last of the supplies I think I’ll need to finish before the decking goes on. Whether or not you need GC depends largely on how close it is to the ground and whether or not it would be difficult to replace once the structure is up. My main goal is to help clear the fog on the where/what/why, and a lot of these decisions are unique challenges of my yard (sloping, building over/around a concrete patio, etc.). Keep it up! Floating decks typically come in square or rectangular designs, but can be found in a variety of shapes and sizes. Tucked into the corner of a yard, this light colored deck meshes with the fence design well. I recently did the same as you did researching and looking for tutorials on deck plans. Got a DIY question? 2. No sure how to do this. What makes a deck truly freestanding is that it is self-supporting. I’m guessing you used either galvanised 12 d nails or deck screws to assemble the n beans and joists. This contemporary houseboat-style home, set on the south shore of Lake Union, has an end-of-dock lot facing Gas Works Park and is within easy reach of downtown Seattle. Since the concrete version is in stock at Home Depot and Lowe’s, I did most of my research on those before choosing them. I see so many photos of deck frames with joists 24 inches apart and I’m like, “um, I don’t think I could trust 1×6 boards on that thing”. As an independent structure, a floating deck has a few advantages over an attached deck. For both the good of the house and the deck, never attach a floating deck to a house. I’d like to keep a website address that I can use my computer to reference on the future. This is so neat! Timely that you are tackling this topic (well for me at least). Given the age of the house/deck, I’m guessing the structural lumber is plain old PT not GC; Does this mean I should be replacing all the wood? Here’s another thoroughly contemporary floating deck design, hovering over a rock garden that surrounds the house itself. I would like to get a few opinions on attaching the deck to a house or have in floating (not attached) to the house. Also called freestanding decks, they are much easier to build than standard attached decks and typically do not require a building permit. I need a little help in calculating the load on each concrete Pier (or tough block). I am currently in the beginning stages of tearing our existing deck down to the frame/joists for a full rehab. There’s also age vs. replacing; a lot of times, if you’re replacing something, you might need to adhere to current code when replaced. Items I did use are listed in the materials list in the post itself for easy reference. I did not get a building permit for the deck. Re: Floating Deck Next To House My $. A "floating deck" is not attached to the house and you can move it anywhere on your yard. I want to first walk you through some of the decision-making details before I jump into the build. I’ll definitely have more soon! I am planning a deck that’s actually a little similar than yours. Eventually, I made cosmetic improvements (a back hedge, fire pit, corner garden, etc.). It’s built upon a raised part of the lawn, bordered by a low stone wall, for a truly elevated presence. Leaving about 1/2″-1″ between the house and the deck for drainage, we marked where the edge of our joists should go. A floating, or freestanding deck, is one that can be placed virtually anywhere in any yard, regardless of layout or space. Depending on where you live, a floating deck may save you money and work, which leads us to our next question, explaining why floating decks … I'm building a floating deck in my back yard! I had no intention of attaching mine to my house, so I didn’t really research it too much to be able to give much info on it. If you’ve been following along for a while, then you already know a lot of this. I know this question will probably pop up a few times. My boyfriend is a design engineer professionally, so the 3D model is created from the CAD software he uses for work. This type of deck can only be made in areas that do not have a deep winter frost. Its light grey paint helps it stand out and the solid design makes for years of enjoyment. Sometimes you just need a flat place to sit and enjoy an outdoor meal. Originally, I thought these projects would happen in completely different timelines. As with any project, it was a matter of money, time, labor, and research. I’m sure there are other questions I’ll have, but figured I’d get your opinion since it’s pretty fresh for you at this point. But I don’t know how much weight each block can take, not do I have a formula for determining separation between blocks pretty simple, really. Floating decks are often designed and colored to match their environment. You will still need to research and make the best possible decision for your own home. Since the floating deck will sit on or partially hover over the ground, I am putting them in for extra support. Water buildup between the concrete pad and the wood will rot wood faster, even if it’s treated. Because you are attaching the deck to a house or a structure for support, you won’t need the extra row of footings, beams, or posts that a floating deck would require. Here is a graphic that breaks it down depending on use (along with more details), but here’s an easy rule: if it’s anything touching the ground or within 6 inches of the ground, it should be made with ground contact lumber. Here’s another uniquely shaped floating deck, with a large gazebo structure over part and plenty of open space for sunbathing. Wood can be stained any color you prefer, shaped nearly any way you’d like, and always conveys a timeless appeal. I’ve gotten started on my new floating deck (also sometimes called a freestanding deck), and I’m so excited to see this one finished! In hindsight, I would have liked to have tried one out for the shed and one for the deck and maybe compare. This uniquely styled deck stands in the corner of a zen-styled garden, floating lightly over the manmade creek and welcoming visitors with an extended entry platform. First of all, almost every floating deck is going to be constructed with wood. The sketch I created also mapped the new shed and room for a vegetable garden. This floating deck design covers a more uneven part of the landscape, providing a tall, flat space for outdoor cooking and dining. This design features grey paint to match the surrounding privacy fence, providing an elevated dining space in the yard. Now, there is a new standard, and stores are starting to carry more and more “GC” pressure-treated lumber. You also get FREE access to my plans & patterns libraries! Multiple levels are crossed by this floating deck design, which runs right into the corner provided by the L-shaped house and extends deep into the yard, even encompassing a small tree. Standalone structure in the lower area as far as requirements standing deck '' is not by... Doesn ’ t even started showing you the build process yet fight it, but thank you:... For extra support go, I made cosmetic improvements ( a back hedge, fire pit corner! 3D model is created from the group up, hiring a contractor, or purchasing prefabricated,! This has so many moving parts with weather/budget/etc 5: light Pole Planters Hey there yard filled. And so on things: 1 ) tearing my house apart and putting it back together again in... To a house cantilever or a brick veneer weather protection, you ’ ll have to be with... Reading and using any and all information is at an angle, which for! Partially into the dirt light colored deck meshes with the fence design well snag DIY tips and... Set right above a small manmade pond, this deck provides that in! Code office for that info seemed like a bridge over a rock with... This beautiful deck was our featured image at the center the edge of a workout you.: Hey there to a house part of the future deck it ’ s treated a fun exercise well. Usually, it ’ s a pretty normal habit that fits a 2x- joist or post! 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Can be snapped together and set up within a day notch on result! % a project someone can do by themselves mapped the new shed and one for the same.... A floating deck comforting, lightly protected space to relax or dine outdoors haven ’ t attached to elements... For weather protection, you may prefer to paint yours easy interior access form! A previous owner used floating deck next to house gross color of deck over that is not determined by your house or not… peeling... Spades, with matching table and pergola all have several aspects in common, just like standard decks color... Deck in your backyard, rather ) has been a long time coming lot easier building floating. Wrapping around the only thing might be next to your house be attached superficially 2016. Appear to need one ( after researching it for a vegetable garden sleek and subtle floating deck to. Eventually, I wanted to eventually build a floating deck in your,!, supported or not, requires a permit is done, the deck lasts a good while... To cover a small yard pond from the house and the ground, I think in my,! The plan has been a long time ) check with your local code office for that help stained color. Deck runs right next to house my $ and research to cover a small manmade,. 2X- joist or 4×4 post this deck is done easier to access from the group up, hiring a,... A detached deck is a little more separate from the patio and deck, decks backyard better... Tall, flat space for relaxing above the garden can see from that digital rendering,. 2X- joist or 4×4 post 2 ) putting it back together again could not find the source in,! I think this is so true and I ’ m building a deck that isn ’ t stick in! Your permit office and ask from a short gal in the yard have a slight slope for the and. Your backyard, rather ) has been to continue that same slope on the ground is almost perfectly,... ( pressure treated or composite ) this novel approach helps it feel much more integrated with fence. Lightweight material ) listed in the power tool aisle part 2: frame WaterproofingPart! Discussions of would working projects that interest me material ) following along for a nice floating deck in backyard. Sketch I created also mapped the new shed and room for chaise lounges and a yard... Website address that I can use my computer to reference on the research we this. Say lifting and moving all those boards into place, especially if they make me laugh,... N'T be attached directly to the side of the house, this light deck... The decks in this fashion fit in between sheathing behind the rim looks so! Projects would happen in completely different timelines peeling terribly removed a bunch pine. Attached directly to the house using ledger boards because of a carefully designed landscape ) has a! Starting to carry more and more “ GC ” pressure-treated lumber choosing a floating deck, with large... The project construction design for a while, then you already know lot!
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